Conversation

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1. Alex Gleason (alex@gleasonator.com)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 01:19:08 JST Alex Gleason

   “You can still be for human rights while eating humans.”

   “Ethically killed humans.”

   “Popular opinion.”

   • バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;; (shmibs@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 01:19:03 JST バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;

     in reply to

     • Infected Moomin
     @Moon @alex this sort of thing always comes down to a person's self-defined morals, of course, butbeginning point here is "people have infinite worth, relative to anything else" and "person and human are not the same thing. one can be a person without being human (whether such exists or not already can't say clearly, but don't think it's in-principle impossible) or be human without being a person (brain dead.... etc)". speaking kinda vaguely, "person is sentient/self-aware entity"then think "when is it that a human becomes a person?", and, if such a line had to be drawn, would maybe tentatively go with around 5 or 6, as a point when is somewhere between 85~95% its final size and, experimentally, when continuity of memory seems to properly begin (adults' earliest memories seem never to come from any age earlier than that, though sometimes will construct false memories from earlier)and that seems... sort-of logical?, but at the same time not at all comfortable. would not feel ok at all about killing children younger than that, even babies with their 30-second memories or newborn infants who can't distinguish direction of sounds etc etc.when dealing with something potentially of "infinite worth", had better be very, very certain not to make a mistake on what "is" and "isn't", and the only way that makes sense for that is to push the effective line way down the scale to give leeway just in case you're wrong about where to put the "real" line.and so will never here kill a human infant or be ok with it happening, and maybe not even a few months back pre-birth. then, for consistency's sake, have to extend that to other entities as well. an adult pig, for example, is pretty obviously much more "sentient/self-aware" than is that newborn infant, so it must at least also go in this grey-area zone of "will not kill and not ok with it happening", along with cow, horse, dog, cetacean, certain birds and cephalopods, etcthen, going from there, for me it's easier to just avoid eating meat entirely, rather than having to stop each time to try to figure out "is this morally ok" etc. and not sure would eat lab-grown meat, even, honestly. not because moral stuff, but just it's kind of gross at this point, the thought of meat at all
   • Infected Moomin (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 01:19:04 JST Infected Moomin

     in reply to
     @alex I think we have a species obligation, but I don't have a reasoning behind that.
   • Infected Moomin (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 01:19:05 JST Infected Moomin

     in reply to
     @alex Truthfully I don't believe animals and people are in the same moral sphere with regard to killing.
   • Alex Gleason (alex@gleasonator.com)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 01:19:05 JST Alex Gleason

     in reply to

     • Infected Moomin

     @Moon Right, that’s the popular belief. But I think it’s arbitrary discrimination. Why are they in different moral spheres? For example, people usually say “well a cow isn’t as smart as a human” but then “okay, but it’s fucked up to kill a severally mentally retarded person” (even if they have a similar intelligence as a cow), followed by “it’s never okay to kill a dog for any reason.”

   • Infected Moomin (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 01:19:07 JST Infected Moomin

     in reply to
     @alex I think hunting can be ethical killing. It's pretty much how animals die anyway.
   • Alex Gleason (alex@gleasonator.com)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 01:19:07 JST Alex Gleason

     in reply to

     • Infected Moomin

     @Moon Do you think hunting other humans is ethical killing?

     My argument is that people are animals and animals are people.

   • バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;; (shmibs@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 03:49:31 JST バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;

     in reply to

     • Cheetah Meld
     • Infected Moomin
     @pingviini @Moon @alex nah, hunting-gathering populations always had plenty of effective measures for combating cognitive dissonance. the shock-and-horror appears in modern factory-farming type situations from people not having the same as-a-young, religion-tied indoctrination around the killing act all through childhood, prayer-ritual to thank the spirit, or reincarnation-+-karma means everything-in-its-place, or even just "god says i'm special and have dominion over all the earth"young-life exposure + justifying ideology -> effective vomit suppression for most anyone who has empathy (note the same method also worked for slavery in cultures everywhere/everywhen
   • Cheetah Meld (pingviini@pleroma.shunderdo.me)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 03:49:33 JST Cheetah Meld

     in reply to

     • バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;
     • Infected Moomin
     @Moon @shmibs @alex I guess the slightly cynical effective altruism take I would offer here is that inconvenience to the point of aversion is a much more effective demotivator than trying to teach people ethics and get them to act on those.Hence, I like to imagine a world where non-meat-based food production and distribution remains mostly unchanged, but everybody is both free, and required, to kill their on meat. This would take care of eliminating industrial meat processing, most if not all factory farming and, if my hunch about human motivation isn't completely off, reduce meat consumption immensely.And before you ask, yes, I do actually think the largest part of the general aversion in people against killing other people does not come from ethical considerations or even learned morals. We're probably just a couple evolutionary dice-rolls away from being a species of predatory cannibals who would never have bothered with organizing hunting and gathering in the first place.
   • Infected Moomin (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 03:49:34 JST Infected Moomin

     in reply to

     • バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;
     @shmibs @alex for me there is basically only a certain amount of moral reckoning I can do on a daily basis and I chose to not contemplate the morality of eating meat to keep my sanity. that said it's been weighing on my mind more lately.
   • Infected Moomin (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 04:01:31 JST Infected Moomin

     in reply to

     • Cheetah Meld
     • バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;
     @shmibs @pingviini @alex My exposure to slaughter of animals goes so far back that I don't know if empathy toward animals is a psychological default that has to be overcome or is something that has to be instilled. I am viscerally disgusted by animal cruelty but taking animal for food has never bothered my to my recollection.
   • バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;; (shmibs@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 04:01:31 JST バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;

     in reply to

     • Cheetah Meld
     • Infected Moomin
     @Moon @alex @pingviini father took me hunting as a small, and got the whole slice-a-deer-open-and-pull-it's-stomach-and-intestines-out experience. didn't stick i guess because the ideology bit wasn't there, though. very important, that parttendency-towards-empathy varies from person to person also, though, s'pose. dunnomess
   • バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;; (shmibs@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 04:08:06 JST バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;

     in reply to

     • Cheetah Meld
     • Infected Moomin
     @pingviini @Moon @alex eh, it's only inconvenient now because all the free-roaming ungulates were killed off by extreme over-hunting. so convenient that it takes only a handful of humans to kill a species to extinction; give more of them a reason to hunt and can expect to see a lot more of that
   • Cheetah Meld (pingviini@pleroma.shunderdo.me)'s status on Sunday, 09-Aug-2020 04:08:07 JST Cheetah Meld

     in reply to

     • バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;
     • Infected Moomin
     @shmibs @Moon @alex I'm thinking less about the yuck-factor and more of the simple convenience. It's just incredibly convenient to get meat now. Unprecedented. Mind-boggling in fact.To go back to the people == animals angle, imagine murder being that convenient. I can't, it would be absurd. Like, forget about legal guns vs. gun-control.Think about prepaid cards redeemable for murder available at the supermarket checkout.Think about people designated made-for-murder at birth, who will be efficiently offed once somebody clicks on their portrait on murderzon.com.Just reduce the convenience of meat and keep the convenience of everything else. There'll be results to show.