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Very interesting map
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@Moon @loonycyborg @lain @smithy as things are in the us right now the government invests and then med company profits
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@loonycyborg @lain @smithy I'm sure it'll turn out great never having anybody invest in developing anything ever again
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@lain @Moon @smithy I don't mind abolishing patents altogether. They're entirely based on greed and childishness and don't reflect how technology development really works.
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@Moon @loonycyborg @smithy the question i'm asking is this: there are like 5 or 6 different vaccines, with more being worked on. Is none of these companies willing to license the tech to third party producers? Is this the actual issue? Are there companies that have factories ready but can't produce vaccine because of IP laws? All of the reporting about this seems to start with the idea that it's obviously good to waive the patents. If that's the case, let's never have patents, but then the development and monetization of these things will have to work differently. Moderna is a 10 year old company that never made any money.
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@loonycyborg @lain @smithy moderna essentially said it would not pursue anyone for using their patents, there was no technology transfer. my understanding is that the new US agreement would include technology transfer. I don't know if the existing WHO agreement does.
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@lain @Moon @smithy Patents on vaccine itself aren't too helpful on their own considering it requires expensive and also patented components to make.
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@Moon @smithy why do the patents even have to be waived? Moderna already waived theirs, and otherwise you can just licence the patents. It's like half of the story is always missing.
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@Moon Very interesting - I completely missed this part of the story.My thinking was that Countries who are "in the back of line," so-to-speak, would be in favor of this. I thought the US was more on board since the roll-out there is comparatively far-along, while it's still in its relatively initial phases in Europe, & that they might be worried that waiving patent rights would threaten their would-be early access to vaccines
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@smithy nobody's reporting it.I don't know what the USA's angle is. We were against the patent waiver, including Biden, then he flipped on it abruptly. But we're not joining the existing proposal. That is really suspicious. As it is right now, he and the USA are getting the credit for doing this, but it hasn't happened and is going to have delays in it if it even produces anything at all. Every single day that the USA delays, hundreds or thousands of people are dying, so it's pretty detestable what the USA is doing in any case. I don't know if this is misdirected good will, but to me it feels like the same old shit.
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@smithy usa announced it was interested in doing this and said it would negotiate agreements with other WHO members, but it didn't support the existing agreement that every other supporting country signed. It's fair to say that the USA is not being fully truthful when it says it "supports" this.
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@Moon @lain @loonycyborg @smithy talking about generally. system as it is now is kinda terriblealso could save a lot of wasted money by not having companies invest every n years in the slightly different molecular variant of whatever drug that's metabolised slightly differently or interacts slightly more weakly with receptors or whatever so they can patent and sell it instead of everyone using the generic version that's already tested and works betterand also could save a lot of money by the whole country wasting absurd amounts on healthcare that doesn't workuse those savings to instead boost funding for drug research... and?idunno, everything sucks
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@shmibs @lain @loonycyborg @smithy I saw some charts the other day and the US vaccines had the lowest levels, basically negligible, of direct government investment. Admittedly we did other things to get them out the door.
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@smithy @Moon @lain @loonycyborg sure yeh. though small-scale problems will get ignored whatever the system, because addressing them is unprofitable / "inefficient" (sorry, my money can save these 20 people or 1 you, so you'll have to die now)
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@shmibs @Moon @lain @loonycyborg I think it's clear that we should have more gov funded R&D on things with far-reaching social impact (e.g. vaccines for pandemics, etc.), but the patent system has its benefits insofar as it's very difficult for a centralized authority to predict everything that consumers will need or demand on smaller scale things (i.e. not these big ticket social items, like recent vaccines or cancer treatment, etc.) & tho our system has a shitload of deficiencies, we gotta look at the problems inherent to other systems too
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@smithy @Moon @lain @loonycyborg yeh, but that lagging behind was in large part because of bell labs inventing 1000 things and then releasing them freely to everyone because that was part of the monopoly deal
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@shmibs @Moon @lain @loonycyborg I mean , it's more of a thorny issue for medical stuff of course, but if we're discussing IP in general our patent system has its pluses when it comes to small scale tech and consumer goods - I think this is an area of policy analysis where historical empiricism should be coupled with theory: e.g. soviet & other like minded 20th century command economies ended up dramatically lagging behind in tech development & R&D despite enormous state funds
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@Moon @lain @loonycyborg @smithy squabbling-cat-fight-bureacracy rather than find-smart-kids-in-corn-fields-and-stick-them-in-a-building-with-neato-germans-you-stole, i guess
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@shmibs @smithy @lain @loonycyborg why couldn't the soviet union have a bell labs
Bobby boi ??
バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;
Infected Moomin
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