Conversation
Notices
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affirmative action teachers
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@Moon i mean, the counterpart is speech and debate kids, though, entire club around teaching you to lie convincingly about stuff you don't believemaybe fair to be concerned and there's a middleground
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@Moon like teaching people to stand up for things they think might be right even if those things might not be "standard" without encouraging another round of wannabe-politician bullshit-masters
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@shmibs if you can't defend it either it's not defensible or you don't understand it.
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@Moon not true, though; the point of bullshit is you learn how to defend things convincingly without even knowing or caring if they're correct or not. devil's-advocate training leads directly to pete bootageegno clue who quoted guy is so not defending him. just that there's a good reason to avoid doing "devil's advocate" all the timemaybe better is "don't make conclusions before you've looked hard at the data"
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@Moon yeh sure, i'm not defending that guy and don't care what he means. was responding specifically to "devil's advocate", including steelmanning, which i don't think has any reason to be in a kids' discussion classroomdid two hours a day of that in highschool and later ran myself a couple of sessions of book discussion with kids. and anything you're going to discuss in one of those classes, free will, god, trolley problem, raskolnikov etc, is basically guaranteed to already have students in the room who genuinely have differing opinions about it. get them to discuss it with each other directly instead, and encourage actually listening. the counterfactual arguments can wait until they're older and their brains are more developed
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@shmibs we call it steel-manning the opposition now, you take the most charitable interpretation of your opponent and try to defend against that, not the straw-man version of your opponent. That's how you know (hopefully) that you're right and not just constructing weak arguments to knock them down.It would be trivial for him, in class, to shoot down disingenuous argumentation. He doesn't have to allow that.
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@shmibs he literally is like "our opposition is evil"
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@Moon well, undergrad isn't that different, though. maybe if they're in year 4
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@shmibs OK, the disconnect was I was talking about university-level students. But I mean, I remember high school, we had speech and debate.
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@Moon especially since uni is highschool2 now because highschool1 is so diminished
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@fluffy @Moon 18 year olds are children, and puberty continues through like 25and even then the "advanced" uni english course that's a prerequisite for every degree is something ought to be taught to be 8th-gradersthis is united states, though; dunno where you are
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@shmibs @Moon that is more or less completely the opposite of what my experience has been. what have you seen and learned that made you hold such an unusual opinion?
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@fluffy @Moon and how drunk they are, yes
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@shmibs @Moon am i to understand that you are saying the only difference between a college freshman and a high schooler is their age
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@fluffy @Moon thinking about it and don't see any reason to revise. no 18 year olds think themselves immature and older people quickly forget unless they have kids that age or work with them regularly, but it's still how things are. mental "adult" happens somewhere after 22 or so, and then continues to develop for a while
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@shmibs @Moon think about it for a bit, you'll realize why that's not quite right.
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@fluffy @Moon why writing a good book is basically impossible for anyone under 26
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