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anti-vaxxers be like 'we respect your choice' while coming up with new insults to hurl whenever they see someone who chose to get jabbed
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@coyote @slovborg @hakui (an enveloped spike-having virus has no other exposed surfaces to bind to
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@hakui @slovborg I imagine this also means there's a difference not only between natural immunity from infection and the covid shot, but a traditional vaccine and the other two.
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@coyote @slovborg normally the immune system reads multiple parts of the pathogen when learning how to recognize it so that even if one part mutates, it's still a majority match and the immune system can deal with ittraining it on the spike protein alone makes it useless way faster when just the spike protein mutatesso yes, there's a difference
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@slovborg No, vaccines work differently than natural immunity.Also, your study was covering something I wasn't talking about, I was talking about low levels of vitamin d being a potential risk factor for covid, and also that it is worth considering taking vitamin d, not just for COVID, but for general immune health and mental and bodily health, because many do not have enough vitamin D to begin with. I am unsure of studies that look into this as a risk factor, my point is not to state it as fact but pose the question, and it seems not a lot of people are asking it.
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@coyote Also I should note that I find the stress on "*natural* immune system" hilarious, given that vaccines function by activating that exact natural immune system.
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@slovborg for treatment or prevention? I could try to pull up studies that show the opposite, and neither of us truly understand what was going on with any particular study anyway, we just trust them not to manipulate data or just be wrong. There are signs, but the layman can't usually see them.
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@slovborg If only people knew how effective vitamin d and zinc are at raising the effectiveness of the natural immune system... If only we tested this... If only we had studies on this... Maybe we could find a preventative measure, if we looked....
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@coyote We did. They don't work.https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003605https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2776305
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@thatbrickster I'm pro-vax and I think those who reject the vax should also be denied hospital treatment should they get sick, given that they already declined the preventive stage of treatment.
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@coyote @slovborg @hakui "gene therapy" refers to treatments that intentionally modify a patient's dna, which direct mrna delivery is not. there was an article someone posted around here a bit ago which said "direct mrna delivery could be a good alternative to gene therapy in this case", and the poster had misinterpreted it to mean that "mrna delivery is gene therapy" rather than "mrna could replace gene therapy in this case" (which it can do because mrna delivery is relatively easy, whereas editing cells' dna and dodging the host immune system is hard. gene editing in already-mature adults is currently mostly only workable in like the eyes, for treating genetic blindness, because as part of the brain they're not linked up with the normal immune system)it's a technical possibility that such mrna could be converted to dna and then happen to find its way into the nucleus and happen to be integrated, as some reverse transcriptases are made use of inside a cell, but the chance is thankfully a very low one (or else our cells would be constantly malfunctioning from its happening with random rna) and the chances of that happening to be a reproducing stem cell or a germ cell and dodging immune response etc etc are even lower. this is why retroviruses have to carry their own reverse transcriptase and integrase; the alternative isn't workable.all medical treatments are experimental and have a risk/benefit tradeoff. all medications have the potential for side-effects that needs to be balanced against potential for beneficial outcomes. don't take medications (including aspirin / whatever vitamin supplement / etc) unless you've looked into the tradeoffs involved and find the risks acceptable, because it's true there are people out there who push things (e.g. psych meds) that for most patients won't be helpful. in the case of these particular vaccines, to me the tradeoff seems worth it for most adults, as even a mild infection with few symptoms messes with your brain, killing off neurons. i'll probably get stabbed as well, but am holding out for a few more days first to see what bloodwork has to say about this mystery autoimmune disease that's eating me alive...
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@coyote @slovborg the traditional ones are as effective as normal flu shots (i.e. not very much
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@hakui @slovborg at least they're not a gene therapy or experimental in nature IG
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@hakui @coyote @slovborg no. normally mrna is produced and used (constantly) inside of the cell
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@shmibs @coyote @slovborg >but the chance is thankfully a very low onebecause normally mrna gets eliminated outside of the cell and aren't encapsulated in a lipid coating that prevents that from happening
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@hakui @coyote @slovborg what
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@shmibs @coyote @slovborg and injections are not
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@shmibs @coyote @slovborg >normally mrna is produced and used (constantly) inside of the cellthat's because if mrna gets out of the cell they get eliminated before they can get into other cellsthe mrna in the injections are encapsulated to prevent that from happening
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@hakui @coyote @slovborg ...yes....and?
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@hakui @coyote @slovborg maybe re-read the post above...
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@shmibs @coyote @slovborg non-negligible chance of >mrna could be converted to dna and then happen to find its way into the nucleus and happen to be integrated
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@shmibs @coyote @slovborg maybe i won't
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@hakui what you're saying is exactly what i preemptively responded to in that post
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@hakui then you're wrong
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@shmibs you just said that the chances of dna being modified by mrna is smalland i disagree with the probability
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@hakui cells making use of mrna is not a new, unstudied phenomenon
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@shmibs nobody knows
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@hakui ...normal method of people eating a sandwich at home, not unnatural transportation of lunchbox-encapsulated sandwiches
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@shmibs studies were done on the normal method of cells making use of mrna, not unnatural injections of lipid-encapsulated mrna
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@hakui there isn't some fine-tuned access method. cells work by things randomly floating around and bouncing into each other. once it's inside, you have just another random-ly bouncing bit of mrna
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@shmibs more like normal method of accessing an array, compared to unnatural looking up of individual memory addressesbut you're the one getting the shot so *shrug*
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@meowski @coyote @slovborg @hakui sure, an argument can be made for it, as it's genetic material, but that' snot how the term is used in practice
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@shmibs @coyote @hakui @slovborg although these mRNA vaccines aren't intended to reverse transcribe to nuclear DNA, i still consider them gene therapies because they encode viral genes - protein coding transcripts.messenger RNA is a complementary molecule and functionally similar enough in the cells that "gene therapy" is the closest term we have to describe it so i think this is a fair classification
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@coyote ...that's not how it's usedand what is the risk that's growing, exactly? say you happen to have one cell out of trillions that happens to integrate it into its dna; what's the bad thing that happens then?as opposed to brain-damage diseasesister's boss started symptoms 2 weeks ago and is still doing badly, fevering, and brother as well (21) for a week now
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@shmibs @hakui @slovborg I've seen gene therapy used more broadly than simply "modifies the DNA of the host", and this:> it's a technical possibility that such mrna could be converted to dna and then happen to find its way into the nucleus and happen to be integratedScares the shit out of me tbh. When the goal is 7billion doses, every country rich and poor, every people, every population, that risk grows.Also to compare a gene therapy mRNA shot from 100% never before used methods, components, and technology to aspirin or vitamins kinda shows me all I need to know... Or even to compare them to psych meds which proves the pharma industry has pushed bunk meds on entire populations and hurt people...Oh, you've probably already had it, a year, maybe a year and a half ago. I'd be willing to bet most people have had it with no symptoms already.
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@coyote you need to take intro biology, immunology, epidemiology, and virologyright now you're listening to people who are trying to scare you and keep you from thinking
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@shmibs do they have low vitamin D, or a comorbidity? Why isn't there any other treatment than the shot? Wish them well but I'm willing you bet your brother will make it. I had friends who caught it bad for two weeks and recovered, now they have natural immunity, so what if they're sick? Yeah young people can get it, but well over half of people show no symptoms, I can't help but notice you didn't argue that...> and what is the risk that's growing, exactly? say you happen to have one cell out of trillions that happens to integrate it into its dna; what's the bad thing that happens then?>assuming the risk of this happening is nil>assuming if it does nothing bad will happen (I'll tell you a trick to remembering how to spell that: when you assume you make an ass out of you and me)Predictions of side effects of mRNA shots by doctors, endocrinologists, neurologists, molecular biologists, and other scientists is cancers, cytokine storms, autoimmune disorders, and death, among other things. This is also the results of animal studies prior.... And no one knows exactly what will happen when we have our DNA changed that wat, because this is truly experimental technology that has never been used before. It's not like aspirin or vitamin D, or any other vaccine, do not ever spread the misinformation that it is anything but experimental technology.
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@coyote all medications have risks. and in this casebad immune response: appreciable risk"dna integration: not appreciable risk
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@coyote it's true ┐(¯-¯)┌
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@shmibs >right now you're listening to people who are trying to scare you and keep you from thinkingThis conversation is over, untag me from here on out, don't ever talk to me about this topic or address me with presumptions such as these or stupid bullshit arguments like "go be a scientist or you're wrong"I kinda think you could stand to NOT make an ass out of yourself, but I guess that's more your own decision and I'll let that be the case.
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@coyote the courses all exist for free online. if you want to talk about a "science topic" you need to research it first
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@shmibs it's hypocrisy 101 untag or fucking kill yourself
Bricky
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