Conversation
Notices
-
I heard in California many hospital workers are minorities who also lean antivax and that they're looking at lots of staff shortages due to the mandate
-
@lain @guizzy @augustus antibiotics and vaccines are kind of exactly that, though, unless you want to get rid of cities and air travel
-
@guizzy @augustus yeah, i think the vaccines are probably good, but pretending that they are the one thing standing between a free society and the abyss of overrun hospitals is jsut nonsense
-
@lain @augustus Yes. The media try really really hard to obfuscate it by making cherry picked comparisons, but the results of lockdowns vs no lockdowns look to me like random noise. Vaccine seems to still be effective in reducing the risk of extreme complications, but not of infection or mild illness. Should just people's own choice whether they get it or not, it's not affecting others.
-
@augustus @guizzy one of these countries had heavy restrictions, mask mandates, forced testing, closed schools. the other one had suggestions to use masks when appropriate.
-
@guizzy that's a good argument at least. also i've heard that countries that lockdown fare no better than countries that don't.
-
@augustus I think their justification is that unvaccinated people spread it more (I don't think I've seen credible evidence of that yet) or that they will overwhelm hospitals and we'll have to go back into lockdowns to avoid the healthcare system collapsing.
-
@guizzy I don't understand why unvaccinated people are a public health risk when the vaccine is already available to anyone that wants it. you can't blame them when its so easy to get the shot if you want it.
-
@augustus The messaging they use trying to convince people is completely deaf.They present it as if it's a selfish choice, as if the people refusing it are just selfish and want to enjoy the safety of herd immunity without risking the side effects.They don't trust the government, and the more authoritarian governments get to try and force them to take it, the more justified not trusting them is.
-
@lain @guizzy @augustus vaccines in general are pretty all-or-nothing, though; it's not an "if you personally are at risk" gambit; requires near global cooperation
-
@shmibs @augustus @guizzy i'm talking about this exact virus with these exact vaccines and an essentially mandatory vaccination. I did get like 5 different vaccines for my trips because i know they've been tested for decades and work well with very low risk, and i'm at risk because of the area i'm in. that's different from vaccinating everybody for something they are not at risk of (like children or young healthy people in case of covid) just because it kinda sorta might be helpful maybe.
-
@guizzy @lain @augustus varies from disease to disease of course, preventative and therapeutic uses at a personal level, but if you can't get enough people to use it to stop circulation people (including the vaccinated ones) keep getting the disease
-
@shmibs @lain @augustus Herd immunity yes, but vaccines are still supposed to be effective on individuals.
-
@augustus @lain @guizzy a vaccine trains your immune system. it's not a magical shield that makes pathogens bounce off and never enter your body
-
@shmibs @guizzy @lain i have absolutely no idea what's going on. does the vaccine prevent transmission or doesn't it?
-
@augustus @lain @guizzy i'm not "against" anyone. what individuals do in a situation like that can have consequences for others, though; like the intentional chickenpox-catching parties parents had when i was younger rather than using the newly-available vaccine. that set up another generation for shingles, with the random nerve damage/death but also recurrent spreading it entails. it's important to think about groups rather than just individuals
-
@shmibs @guizzy @lain would you be against someone intentionally contracting the virus themselves so they can become immune to it and then contribute to herd immunity rather than get vaccinated
-
@lain @guizzy @augustus sure, what's best for any given disease needs to be case-by-case evaluated. in general, though, public health cannot be effectively approached as prisoner's-dilemma individuals
-
@augustus @shmibs @guizzy i think a lot of the issues around discussing this stuff is because we say 'vaccines' as if it was a very specific class of medicine and not a list of products with widely varying effectiveness, risks and usefulness. A newly developed chemical that has been on the market for a year doesn't have the same risk associated with it as something that's been given to kids for 30 years. I think pro-vax/anti-vax is a strawman, at least for most people. even pro-covid-vax/anti-covid-vax mostly is. i think risk groups should probably get the vaccines even if they are kind of experimental, and non risk groups should not. what's a risk group? that's for the at-risk individual to decide, with help from information from doctors.
-
@lain @guizzy @augustus "my short-term benefit of reduced personal risk is worth defecting for"it's the same sort of motivation that leads livestock farmers to rely on antibiotics and vaccines as a crutch, for short term profit and long term mass-death
-
@shmibs @augustus @guizzy this is not a prisoner's dilemma situation, people who aren't taking the vaccine aren't saying 'yes i know it would be better if we all took it but i can't trust you'
-
@guizzy @lain @augustus being very blunt, most people are not in a position to evaluate such data even if they had it, and a mass-pandemic can't be halted and started over once you've gathered enough data to be certain anyways. "everybody's dead now, but at least we know what would have worked"of course the blatantly lying to people approach didn't work at all either though, so...
-
@shmibs @lain @augustus The people refusing it are not seeing it as a long-term collective benefit, they're not making a selfish choice. They think the burden of proof that it's a long-term collective benefit is on the people pushing it, and that they're not meeting that burden.If governments and public health officials wanted to improve vaccination rates, they'd work on honestly showing that they do meet this burden of proof.
-
@augustus @lain @guizzy arguing only that if public health is to be effective then it must necessarily be collective. different means of achieving cooperation and how feasible they are, what costs and dangers they carry etc, is a different matter entirely that i'm too stupid to talk about
-
@guizzy @shmibs @lain shmibs knows what's best for those people, don't impugn her honor, it's for the greater good. also her first reply hinted that you need "near global cooperation" to solve this. possibly the biggest red flag of all which set off massive alarm bells in my brain. the nature of how these crises simply get used to advance the interests of powerful classes of people, and the lengths that they go to to convince themselves they are just trying to help everybody when everything they propose will just happen increase their own power, these all lead me to be extra suspicious of everything i hear. also i will say i do genuinely appreciate shmibs steelmanning the side of the debate that i don't get to hear very much.
-
@shmibs @augustus @lain At this point, the most "vaccine hesitant" education level is Ph. Ds. And the most hesitant sector is healthcare workers. I don't think the "you wouldn't understand, citizen, just comply" argument is very justified.
augustus pugin ?
バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;
lain
an actual bear in a hazmat suit
All senooken JP Social content and data are available under the