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although the critique that the 737 max disaster happened because they were 'just looking for profit' is a bit off the mark. There's nothing worse for profit than crashing a few planes.
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@lain (reality == expectation) ?
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@lain literally every time I have warned of a risk in software engineering, the management's way out was pretending it would never happen.
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@lain just convince yourself there's no problem, it's easy when you're motivated by short term profits
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@lain @Moon for the purpose of X does not necessitate X being achieved
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@Moon very true, but that's not 'profit', that's rising in the corporate structure. And companies are punished for it if they let these things getting out of control, as can be seen by Airbus stealing nearly all customers from Boeing.
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@lain @Moon man who loses horse-race bet can be profit-motivated etc
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@lain @Moon sure mmm. so maybe people upset at the matter aren't thinking it through to conclusion, phrasing that way. playing a safe, long-term game is valid market strategy as is riskier short-term bet, but former coincidentally aligns with people not being dead and so isn't questioned
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@shmibs @Moon well, the point is that it doesn't have much explanatory power. The whole aviation sector is focused on profit, and it's the safest way of travelling in the world. The European carrier who makes the most profit (both absolute and relative) is Ryanair, who have the cheapest pilots, cabin crew and machines, and they have a perfect safety record.
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@shmibs @lain I decided I'm ok blaming it on general corporate dysfunction that even critical industries seem to not be able to avoid.
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@Moon @lain can say "they made a dumb decision", but the decision is still a profit-motivated one. will for all the "properly smarts" always still be "dumb deciders" around to make those dumb decisions, same way you can't stop cancer colonies from spontaneously evolvingthe actions of profit-incentivised actors are only coincidentally aligned with want-to-be-happy-and-not-dead actors through situational confounders. so it's important, remembering that they don't have any intrinsic motivation to not-hurt-people, i guess is take-awaywhy strategic regulation is necessary, to limit the profit-motivated behaviours when they aren't aligned. misapplied regulations can also make things worse though, unintentionally shifting the motivational landscape away from neato and towards onoes, so be careful and don't break a good thing when it's working well etc etccomplicated life XX
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@Moon @lain (ah confounder is the opposite of what i meant, sorry, conjoining rather than bifurcating, but yeh XX
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@lain @Moon sure, so happens to align in that situation, and happens to misalign in the selling-people-addictive-garbage-food-that-kills-them market, etc
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@shmibs @Moon @Moon @lain > the actions of profit-incentivised actors are only coincidentally aligned with want-to-be-happy-and-not-dead actors through situational confounders. This is not true. Dead people don't book flights, and their friends don't book them on your crashy plane.
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@lain @Moon don't think that's relevant?, a different conversation. it's just an example of "in this case, going after profit does not mean doing things that are good for people". try also health care pricing, predatory loans with obfuscated details, planned obsolescence, or whatever elsegoing with that about food, though, children can't choose not to eat the hurting-them food (that their parents or school cafeterias buy because it's cheap), people can't choose to not breathe the second-hand smoke or coal dust or drink the poop water, etc. sometimes things just aren't aligned without regulated incentives
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@shmibs @Moon there's a big difference there, people do know that being obese isnt healthy and they still do it. Nobody goes on a plane thinking "yeah some Boeing execs know that this plane is unsafe but ignore it". There is a right to stupidity.
lain
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Infected Moomin
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