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So the nasty bullying thread @icedquinn got sucked into:Who the fuck are these supposed unironic "all fascism is right wing and fascism is actually a good thing and we're going to use postmodern argumentation to bully until you let us win" guys?Tbh I think they're glowies or lefty false-flaggers.It's a persona I've seen repeated online from so-called alt-right or so-called groypers or so-called ethno-nats.They use many of the leftist tactics and ethos:Sockpuppeting to make a dogpile to create the appearance of consensus to intimidate and make the other appear outnumbered.The "well obviously" style of argumentation that mostly rests on calling the other stupid for disagreeing until they agree.The need to control definitions and simultaneously motte-and-bailey them to manipulate via control of language.It's the exact same personality and tactics each time, like they're a bunch of clones (or sockpuppets).
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@JSDorn @wowaname @aven > if we want to live in a traditional society we will need a lot of force to build it in this current world.Is that why the Amish are stockpiling tactical nukes?
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@wowaname @aven how so?If we want to live in a traditional society we will need a lot of force to build it in this current world.Force that dictated cultural norms, including speech and belief.If you want a traditional society there's no serious alternative to fascism
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I'm pleasantly surprised people liked my post so much. I guess I'll further elaborate:There's this weird disconnect between "in name" and "in deed":In name:Ultra-christian, moreso than you!Ultra-nationalist, moreso than you!Ultra-right-wing, moreso than you!Ultra-trad, moreso than you!Ultra-rational/facts-and-logic, moreso than you!Ultra-free-speech (they'll tell you to shut up, but will never miss a chance to interact, something vaguely resembling free-speech trolling)In deed:Very un-christian behavior, probably don't know nuances or details or biblical passages. This cannot be tested because they'll just google it, and invariably return the most hard-line interpretation they can find. They're trying to be the caricature.Their preferred nation controls the economy and implements virtue via government economic policy, like banning "degenerate" things. Totally not socialist, though, totally not like what is done is every socialist country.Ultra-right-wing is the mirror image of the "more left than thou" phenomena on the left, where scummy people virtue signal their way into social capital of "more left than thou" by giving lip-service to ideological purity. Then they're allowed to be total con-artists, because no one will question them because it would be "punching left". This is what that looks like on the "right".The "trad" element is a virtue signal. It's "look at the degeneracy on the left, I'm the opposite of that". They don't do it for any practical or spiritual reason. It's also a mirror image of "degenerate because it triggers the cons" on the left.They love appearing to be "rational argumentation", but mainly in the way of shaming and insulting an invented lack of rationality in their opponent. This is not logos, this is pathos.Their approach to free-speech is hypocritical, as they're for it until they're in charge, at which point "degeneracy" would be banned, the mirror image of the left's "hate speech". Also they like speech like the left likes protest: they use it while not in power, to gain power, and violently crush and ban it when they've gained power.
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@aven i feel like anyone who's actually trad or free-speech wouldnt be on board with fascism in any form
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@aven the real problem here is characterisation of "left" as homogeneousit's exactly the same "both sides", just when you're on one the people you hear from the other are loud authoritarians because they shout over everyone elsesee otto neurath (loud politic guy) vs. schlick or whoever (quiet・apolitical・friendly) ((also both were very anti postmodernism and metaphysics and stuff, though; that's split too))
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Overall, the personality looks to me like an intentionally constructed stereotype of what a leftist opposes. A controlled opposition.It's really uncanny, because while the stereotype has all the appearances of a "right-winger", you can see leftist ethos in its worldview and tactics. It's collectivist, wants to control economy (for different reasons), wants to restrict speech (by different means, bullying instead of banning), it purity-spirals.It treats all culture, economy, and social life as a battleground of ideological total war, where "everything is political": a leftist concept.It uses postmodern argumentation: trying to win the argument by not allowing the argument to take place. Constant weasel-words and definition control/twisting.It stands unopposed simply by being so nasty and toxic that no one wants to deal with it, another leftist tactic. Instead of winning respect, it settles for fear.This is what progressivism looks like when it wears right-wing clothes, attempting to be LARP auth-right, but still being left.Finally, false-flagging and controlled-opposition and purity-spiraling and accelerationism are left-wing tactics.
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@shmibs I do think "leftism" has many heads, but they all to have the same body of ethos and ideology and worldview and tactics.On the surface it does not appear homogeneous as there are many different versions, all of which hate each other.In the same way that different feudal lords may fight each other, each is a warlord and each has a similar worldview (feudalism) and ethos (valor/loyalty/fealty), and they all are feudal.Just because they oppose each other doesn't mean they don't have the same philosophy or core ideology.
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@aven mmm, but many do not share the same philosophy or core ideology, particularly with respect to the authoritarianism, postmodernism, and politicisation, none of which are essential
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@aven like: russell and wittgenstein differed in many ways, but both were about as anti-postmodern as a person could be. and see new sincerity for similar response more recentlyand plenty of internet hippies about as anti-authoritarian/anti-political a person can getas far as i can tell, the "left / right" split, as nebulous as it is in practice, does have two things that are vaguely consistent about it though: "let's work together" vs. "let's work separately" and "future is cool" vs. "past is cool" (for some invented fictional version of future / past)
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@shmibs but they do, and they are essentialHere are the common threads present in *all* leftism.Generally, collectivism. That the individual is an isolated monad without meaning or value that will die if left alone. It must be collectivized, whether is consents or not, for its own good.Of course, the good of the individual doesn't matter in leftism, which is part of why self-improvement is neglected and mental health deteriorates. If every person is worse off, but the imaginary group label is better off, it's considered a win.When leftists gain power, they're always hyper-nationalist and jingoist. Globalism is just nationalism with imperialism/world-domination on top.Collective economics (different forms and extents and methods, but all anti-capitalist and against free markets)Anti-private-property, including people's ownership of their own body and labor. They'll do mental gymnastics for pandering to liberals (who are not leftists) for issues like abortion.Collective culture (you live in a society and you cannot opt out)Worldview of the world as an ideological battlefield, where everything is political, no exceptions. This totalizing worldview is where the word "totalitarian" comes from.No privacy or personal choices, because everything is political. Like your haircut must mean something political, whether your like it or not, so choose wisely, comrade.A worldview of the eternal march toward progress/perfection/utopia, where being apolitical is being evil, or as they call it, "fascist".There's more, but this is getting long....
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@aven this is a strawman, of the sort painted by one's friends to rage against a common enemy
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@aven as i already said, authoritarianism ("it must be collectivised, whether it consents or not" etc), politicisation ("world as an ideological battlefield") etc are not essential characteristics. they are, and have been, actively opposed by as many "left" people as "right" people, just as there are as many "right" and "left" people who have espoused them
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@shmibs how so, specifically?
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@aven for every orwell, who intentionally inserts political ideology into everything he possibly can, there is a gödel, who just wants to chat and doesn't realise he's in a war zone
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@aven some liberals are "left" and some liberals are "right", and some "left" and "right" people are more authoritarian
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@shmibs I think the "left" people you're referring to are liberals, not "leftist", they are not in with "leftism".Leftism is anti-liberal, and increasingly liberal stances are being smeared as "far-right" by leftists. The left in the USA is conquered/occupied by leftists, despite that I'd estimate about 5% of the population is leftist.The democrat party isn't leftist, either, they're just stuck pandering to it, because it's to the left of them and they can't "punch left".
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@aven so you're redefinining "leftist" to mean like "someone i don't like"? it seems to me very like people using "right" to mean only those people you started this thread to critiqueand i meant that literally, that gödel was so detached from politics he did not realise the second world war had started, had a difficult time last-minute escaping
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@shmibs Orwell, while being of the left, was not a leftist, and warned against leftism in 1984, where English Socialism (INGSOC) portrays a very pure leftism.>doesn't realise he's in a war zonewe don't have to see everything through the lense of endless war. Doing so is a leftist thing. We can disagree, and don't need metaphors of violence and battle and militarism around it.
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@aven left is not collectivist. authoritarianism is collectivist, telling other people they have to "get in line and do what i want you to"authoritarians can be left or rightnot-authoritarian left is "let's be individuals helping each other by sharing (but of course you don't have to if you don't want; i just think it would be cool)", not authoritarian right is "let's be individuals with tall fences and negotiate through contracts (but of course you don't have to if you want, and i'll no step)"it's authoritarians who force everyone in line (either "we are all identical world, unisex haircuts and factory jobs for all" or "some people will stomp on you, but you get to stomp on the others lower in the pyramid and try to fight your way up to the top, so it's all good" depending on the "left/right" flavour
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@shmibs no, the people I was critiquing I think are leftists, because their ideology is leftism with "fellow kids" fake virtue signaling "right-wing" coat of paint. Tbh I think they LARP.Look at what they're advocating and how they're advocating it:It's collectivist, authoritarian, anti-capitalist, culture-as-battlefield, peer-pressure, postmodern argumentation, etc.Just because the slap the words "christian" and "nigger" and "sodomite" and "traditional" on top, doesn't mean they aren't talking about leftism.In the same way that Maoism is leftism, as "Marxism with Chinese characteristics", they're adding (what they stereotype as) "right-wing" characteristics.It's like "Redneck Revolt", an ANTIFA LARP group that tries to bring leftism to "rednecks".
Aven
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