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some people seem to *really care* about what happens in other people's beds and i keep failing to comprehend why
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@Moon @helene isn't that kind of anathema to the free market thing, though? like saying "my externalities are not my problem, but yours are!!!" is... actually maybe it is understandable, when ideology promotes selfish-behaviour-only
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@helene Eris is right that private behavior actually does have an effect on society so in that sense it''s fair game for regulation.
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@Moon oh? could you explain? i'd really like to try to understand it, honestly; it just always felt so foreign to measian girls' beds do not count btw
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@helene I personally get it I just don't think it's usually valuable to pursue.
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@Moon @helene don't know any person decreeing such unless it's in both cases still "in my own favour" regulation, if openly valuing "cultural milieu better suits my personal tastes" over "other people can be alive and have families"
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@shmibs @helene if you're suggesting many right wing people are hypocrites you are correct. but some people would regulate both your private sexual activities and the market with equal zeal.
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@orekix @helene @Moon neither was hating gay people
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@Moon @shmibs @helene free market was not a right wing idea originally
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@Moon @helene honestly people start out not really caring either way about things that don't affect them much, and most still give nuanced answers when asked in a way that doesn't prompt group allegiance, but are trained into either vocal group loyalty or into silence. people do tend to naturally act selfishly in situations that are more of a threat to them, like "the machine took my job", but something like rabid gay hatred has to be trained
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@shmibs @helene do you figure people select an ideology based on their temperament or do they weigh all the evidence and then adjust their life to match what seems to be empirically correct and then still probably select the evidence that matches their temperament>
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@Moon @helene this is why estimates about prevalence of "minority groups" is so wildly inaccurate now (on the high end), because people are being trained to hate them, so the perceived influence of those people is inflated. left alone, the natural state of normal people to weirds is more just vague unease and distrust
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@Moon @helene (goes for perception of "q-flavoured extremazoid nationalists!!" as well, being a minority group that's good to hate
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@Moon @helene i have no idea what that means, sorry, "race-play
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@shmibs @helene I agree with you I just think that even though people are selfish and pick their ideology based on their inclinations, we build systems and theories of law and people kind of conform to them. the example I mentioned before about race-play in private sex, I think that was borne out of a legitimate desire to combat racism. but deciding to do something about it was probably an authoritarian tendency
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@Moon @helene the training is in associating that disgust response with the minority in question. this is why people doing signalling have to associate gay men with poop whenever possible, or old cartoons with japanese guys gave them buck teeth and weird yellow skin
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@shmibs @helene I would actually dispute that you necessarioly need to be trained to hate certain things, conservative mind high disgust sense explains a lot of stuff.
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@Moon @helene oh, well that's a little weird ????, but if the whole group knew about it then it wasn't private? still not sure context there, but "don't do public sex" seems different from "don't do sex i think is icky", hmm
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@shmibs @helene oh sorry it was in another thread, for example a white woman and a black man are in a relationship and privately she wants to call him nigger and pretend shes being raped during sex. this isn't hypothetical, it tore apart a large UK socialist group lol. I don't have a cite right now. a prominent person said "we shouldn't police stuff like this" and some other people lost their shit, sides were drawn and eventually the whole organization blew apart. my point was that you can make a great argument that that private behavior has larger social consequences.
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@Moon @helene how's that?like look around earth at societies without much that training and normal response is "that's kinda weird". then look at societies with lots that training constantly and it's "let's murder them immediately". wouldn't be that difference otherwise
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@shmibs @helene I slightly disagree but I don't think me arguing about it is constructive right now, just registering my slight disagreement.
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@Moon @helene if you're talking about places with writing you're already talking about unrepresentative societies
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@shmibs @helene I haven't done an exhaustive survey but my recollection from looking at the ancient world was that in many places female homosexuality was not even mentioned in moral or legal writing but male homosexuality was. my thinking is there must have been a reason for that but yeah now that were talking about it that's not a sure thing I guess. but it was pretty consistent.
Hélène
バツ子（痛いの痛いの飛んでけ;;
Infected Moomin
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